Wednesday, February 8, 2012

Is The Trinity Doctrine Biblical?

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. I Cor. 8:6 (Where is the mention of the Holy Spirit? One God and one Lord, that doesn’t leave any room for the Holy Spirit as a person or being. It says Jesus is “by whom” are all things because He is the creator. And the Father is “of whom” are all things because Jesus was begotten of the Father and then went on to create all things.)



But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. I Cor. 11:3 (The hierarchy of authority is established in this verse. How could the Father be the head of Christ if Christ is an equal third of the trinity? And where is the Holy Spirit in this hierarchy?)



My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:29 (This doesn’t sound like an equal trinity if the Father is greater than all.)


I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28 (How can the Father be greater than Jesus if they are of an equal trinity.)
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Phil. 2:5-6 (How do you reconcile this verse with John 10:29 and John 14:28 above? Christ is “equal” with God in the sense that He too is also a God being or of the God kind, but with lesser authority. I am equal with my father in the sense that I too am also a human being or of the human kind, but he has a higher authority in the family hierarchy.)


Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. John 13:16 (Jesus was sent by God the Father, so the Father is greater than the Son who He sent. This is not an equal trinity.)


And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matt. 27:46 (Why would Jesus say this if He was a third of the trinity? How could Jesus possibly forsake Himself? And is He suggesting that the Father forsook Him, but the Holy Spirit did not? Of course not.)


And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3 (If the “only true God” is the trinity, which would include Jesus Christ, why then would Jesus have to be mentioned separately? And why was the Holy Spirit not mentioned?)


Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17 (Jesus’ Father and God is the same as ours. It is not himself, but God the Father.)


And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Gen. 1:26… And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: Gen. 3:22… Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. Gen. 11:7 (These verses reveal more than one being talking together. Unless God is talking to Himself…I don’t think so, it says “us, our” not “me, my.”)


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 (Again, this verse reveals two God beings. The word God(Elohim) is a uniplural word, collective noun, like family, team, or group. For example it could be said that John was with Smith(Father) and John was Smith(Son).)


I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Dan. 7:13 (Daniel’s vision pictures two different God beings. The Son of man being brought to or came near to the Ancient of days.)


For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. I John 5:7-8 (The words in bold are nothing but man’s added words to the Bible. The translators had preconceived beliefs in the trinity and felt it was justified to better explain it. Most, if not all translations have a footnote explaining this fact. The NIV footnote explains that these words are found nowhere in any manuscripts until the 16th century.)


I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 5:30 (God the Father and God the Son have two separate wills, but Jesus seeks His Father’s will. And Jesus also claims He can do nothing by His own self.)


For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; I Tim. 2:5 (God the Father is the one true God. Jesus Christ is God’s Son, of the God family, was begotten of the Father, is the one mediator between the Father and men, he is our high priest. Jesus is still God, or of the God family, but the Father has greater authority. But where is the mention of the Holy Spirit?)


The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? Matt. 22:44 (Two Lords exists here. One Lord is in all capital letters indicating a different Hebrew word.)


Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (Just because the Holy Spirit is given a name doesn’t mean that it is a person or being. The Holy Spirit is the power God uses to do his work in us. The Holy Spirit is not a person or being, but is a power or an “it.” Lets see if the rest of scripture is consistent with that interpretation.)


The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:16 (So just as God has a Spirit, we also have a spirit. But we don’t say that our human spirit is a separate person inside of us. Also notice that the Spirit is referred to as an “it” by the word “itself.”)


Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7 (Here the Holy Spirit is referred to as a “him.” But Greek language nouns and pronouns are often times assigned gender whether it be a person or not. There are other places in the Bible where this occurs. But the same Greek word used can also be translated as “it” or “itself” as it is in Rom. 8:16. There are other examples of non beings or persons being assigned gender when it is obviously an “it.” Rev. 1:16 refers to the sun with the pronoun “his.” Isaiah 13:13 refers to the earth with the pronoun “her.” And Matt. 24:29 refers to the moon with the pronoun “her.” So referring to the Holy Spirit as “him” does not qualify it as a person or being.)


Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I John 3:9 (The Greek word for “seed” is sperma, from which comes the English word “sperm.” The Holy Spirit is the “sperm” or “seed” of God. We don’t consider our sperm as a separate person or being from ourselves.)


Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Psalms 51:11 (The Holy Spirit is not a person, but a power that God can give and take away as He pleases. David is asking God to not take this gift of power away from him. Luke 19:11-26 is the parable of the pounds. The pounds given represent the Holy Spirit given to us. We must increase this power within us and use it and not let it go to waste. This power can come and go from us throughout our lives. It is our duty to seek it out, ask God for it, and increase it within ourselves. Sin separates us from God and reduces the power of the Holy Spirit within us. That is the life long battle of a Christian. And if the Holy Spirit is a personal being why wouldn’t David ask the Holy Spirit directly to stay with him as opposed to asking the Father not to take it from him?)


And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Acts 8:18-20 (Simon refers to the Holy Spirit as a “power.” Peter doesn’t correct him.)


Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13…But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: Acts 1:8 (Here are two more verses referring to the power that is the Holy Spirit.)


I and my Father are one. John 10:30 (Does this mean they are the same person? Or could it mean that they are one in purpose and unity? The only way to know for sure is to see which interpretation lines up with the rest of scripture. And what about the Holy Spirit in this verse?)


…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; John 14:9 (Does Jesus and the Father look identical in appearance or are they the same person? Does Jesus again fail to include the Holy Spirit? Perhaps Jesus appears similar to the Father as most father and son relationships do. And perhaps Jesus also mirrors the Father by his actions. Which interpretation lines up with the rest of scripture?)


Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:11 (This verse explains perfectly how the Father and son are one. They are not the same person. They are one in purpose and unity. All Christians are not one and the same person, but are to be one in purpose and unity. This analogy Jesus gives makes this clear.)


Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: John 17:20-22 (This verse should make it perfectly clear that the Father and Son are one in purpose and unity, not as in being the same person.)


For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. I Cor. 2:11 (Man has the spirit of man in him, just as God has the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit in him. Does this mean that man has a second person living inside of them? Of course not, so how do we claim that God’s Holy Spirit is a separate being of the trinity?)


Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14:10 (So was it the Father or the Holy Spirit that dwelled in Jesus? It was the Father’s Spirit which is called Holy, or Holy Spirit. The Father is a separate being from the Son, but the Holy Spirit is not a being at all, it is an “it”, it is the power of God. That power is what dwelled in Jesus and is what Christians receive from God as a gift.)


And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35 (The Holy Spirit is called “the power of the Highest.”)


But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Matt. 1:20… And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14 (These verses contradict each other if you believe in the trinity. Was Jesus begotten of the Father or conceived of the Holy Spirit? These verses only make sense if the Holy Spirit is not a separate being, but a power that is God’s Spirit.)


Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,… To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. [8] First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, Romans 1:1,7-8 (Paul’s greeting to the Romans mentions God the Father and Jesus Christ, but strangely fails to mention the Holy Spirit. Is Paul disrespecting and committing heresy against the Holy Spirit by failing to mention his name? Paul also does the exact same thing in the greetings of his other letters in the books of I & II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I & II Thessalonians, Philemon, Titus, and I & II Timothy. If Paul believed in the trinity, he would have mentioned the Holy Spirit along with God the Father and Son.)


Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deut. 6:4 (There are multiple ways this verse could be interpreted. The word “one” comes from the Hebrew word “echad” and is the key word in this verse. Trinitarians say this verse is referring to the nature of God and that the trinity is “one” God. The word “echad” is found in other places of the Bible and is also translated as “alone” such as in Isaiah 51:2. The context of the verse is about obedience toward God alone and not other gods. So it seems logical that the meaning of this verse is that “The Lord our God is Lord alone.” We are not to worship or obey any other god except the true God and Him alone. Or if it is supposed to be “one,” then the word God(Elohim) is uniplural like family, and so the family of God is one family or we are to obey the family of God and that family alone. Either way, this verse doesn’t contradict the rest of scripture.)

7 comments:

  1. YOU are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God! Matthew 22:29

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    1. Thanks Anonymous for my 1st reply, even though you don't agree. Good to know that Matt. 22:29 applies to me. Feel free to share what it is you are not in agreement with.

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    2. why would God go to such efforts to make the Holy Spirit so central? If the Holy Spirit is just the power of God, why is it no present in the OT (except for prophesies)? If the Holy Spirit is not a being how come the Holy Spirit can be grieved? Ephesians 4:30

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  2. Acts 5:3-5 calls the Holy Spirit God. "why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit... you have not lied to men but to God." how can an "it" be lied to

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  3. These are great questions Anonymous. Yes, I'm aware of Eph. 4:30 and Acts 5:3-5. And yes, taking these verses by themselves at the exclusion of all the others, you could easily conclude that the HS is a person for having the traits of human feelings. I admit this is a tough subject. And I'm not one to spiritualize away everything, but I feel there is room for interpretation on both of these verses IN LIGHT OF other scriptures that speak otherwise. Some verses only allow for one interpretation. And some verses are more ambiguous and taken by themselves at the exclusion of other scriptures, they could be interpreted in multiple ways. So I think we have to be careful not to single out those more ambiguous verses. A spirit is hard for us human beings to understand is it not? So I would be weary of forming my theology around a few ambiguous verses that has multiple possible interpretations. The ONLY position, in my opinion, that is consistent with ALL of scripture is the position I hold. I form my theology by FIRST seeking out the scriptures that are the most simple and straightforward that don't allow for multiple interpretations and then I go forward from there. If you accept your view, you have MANY scriptures to account for that speak otherwise. Or you can see if the more ambiguous verses can possibly harmonize with the more straightforward verses. I understand we won't all agree. But this is my position unless someone can show how ALL of the verses in my post harmonize with the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. You've got your work cut out for you if you want to attempt it. And my biggest beef with the doctrine of the Trinity is the absoluteness of which most of Christianity gives it, when clearly in my view, there are many verses that contradict this doctrine. It seems to be accepted without question. And the pagan roots of this doctrine is quite concerning, look that up. And the fact that this doctrine was highly contested back in the 4th century before being stomped out by force and being forced underground to this day. Many were killed for opposing this doctrine back then. Today, if any denomination questions or rejects the Trinity, it is automatically give a status of a cult. Anyways, you may not agree, but hopefully that helps.

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    1. I would argue that these passages (acts, ephesians) are very clear and the passages you used are iffy. You used the definition by negation. You used many passages that don't include the HS to make your argument. I used scripture that actually centers on the HS.

      Would you take the context of the Ephesians passage and acts passage literally? I would. Why wouldbuoy take the entire passage literally except for the one verse in either passage?

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  4. I've learned from past debates with people on this issue that we could argue in circles for a long time about this and still not agree. I respect your opinion and wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on any of my other posts, but I try to present what it is I believe the best I can and let the Holy Spirit do its job of convicting hearts and minds. I can agree to disagree because if I alienated everyone that didn't agree with everything I believed I wouldn't have any friends. :)

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